Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.- Andre Gide
"but killing people on the grounds that the film is blasphemous"- What a half way explanation. Why didn't you bring up the fact that there were radical elements that were attempting to kill him? Why didn't you write that many of the protestors, in fact majority of Muslims, actually objected to any violence? Your post is misleading and obviously in favor of why secularism is a pan-human form of government that can save the world or at least thrust it into the "right direction". Secularism is an ideology that works in certain areas of the world. You constantly bash Shariah- style or Shariah influenced style governments as backwards( even using Western ethnocentricism of Christian history as evidence), yet fail to bring up the fact that Shariah governments are as many fold as the implication of secularism is to the west. Remember, Communist( or state-capitalist) nations were secular, many of Hitler's policies were secular and even the dicators Asad, Mubarak and other corrupt governments of so called Islamic countries are secular(Pakistan, Bangladesh just to name a few). Islam is rising; a revival if you will in Muslim nations. The West is trembling at the revival and the returning of the self-identity of Muslims around the world. Since the abolishment of the Khilafah by the hands of Britian and Ataturk, the poorly designed division of Muslim countries, imposing nationalist-tribal pride amongst the Muslims( which is considered Haram in Islam), and force feeding Muslims to adopt secularism during the cold war, has had drastic affects. It thrusted the Muslim Ummah into disarray and backwardness at the hands of becoming "modern". This had serious consequences in the Muslim world, causing a sausage affect. Suppressing Muslim views on how the state should run( such as the prohibition of Riba,helping of other Muslims and support of other Sunnah practices) have caused the rise of ignorance.This is all changing now with the young population in Muslim countries and abroad; returning to Islam and abandoning the Secular experiments of their former generations. Young Muslims are educated, pissed and have taken to the polls and elected Islamic governments.Why am I saying all this? You want to end extremism in Muslim countries? Understand that Muslims want their identity back. If Muslims were proud of their governments and elected their politicians on the basis of Shariah and Sunnah, extremism would lose attraction since the enemy has disappeared. Unlike in the west, Secularism is unpopular in Muslim nations. That's the beauty of the humanity. What works in one part of the world, doesn't necessarily mean it does some where else. So, I beg all of you, hold back enthocentricism and look at the situation in terms of world pluralism( in terms of how governments work.) Yes we Muslims have problems to figure out and hurdles to overcome, but I promise you, the West does not have the answer.
Last but not least, I would like to apologize if I offended anyone or disrespected anyone. Please forgive me in advance. Jazakallah Khayran for your time.
In my opinion open-minded secularism, is possible. There just has to be enough open minded people to support it, whether it is religious of political. No one wants to admit their belief is wrong, especially when it’s being attacked. Muslim, Judaism and Christianity all have the same origin. They all speak of one Supreme Being. People have been fighting for hundreds of years trying to prove that their religion is the only true religion. Extreme measures like killing, torturing and exiling any person that went against what the church believed. History teaches us that no matter who is in power, there has to be someone to blame. Power hungry countries (US), always need another country to prove how strong they are. I’m an American and former Christian that believes that there is no need for one religion, or religion in general. Why? Because too many people use it out of context. Just because something is said or done in a certain way, does not mean that is the only way to say or do it. Why can’t we as a human species come to an agreement that we do not know for sure what happens after this life. Does it really matter if someone believes you get turned into an animal, or go to some paradise after we die? Why can’t we just be a good person instead of fighting over something that no one on earth knows for certain? I try to be a good person because I like being a good person, not because some hypocritical religious figure told me I should, based on the words of a book. By the way I believe in a Superior Being, but not the God portrayed in many religions.
I watched the video earlier today, and after watching it I can successfully say that this ENTIRE situation is utterly obnoxious. It shows how ignorant and oblivious human beings can be, including AMERICANS and MUSLIMS. The whole thing has been taken way out of context and has ruptured into something way out of proportion. First of all, Americans have the right to freedom of speech. Whether they use it to make distasteful videos or not, it is there choice nonetheless. It's completely insane that anyone would think that the government has anything to do with such a foolish THIRTEEN MINUTE video. I find it outrageous that ANYONE would act out in such horrific rage for such stupidity. I thought if you believed in something you honored it? Why would ANYONE honor their religion by using VIOLENCE? Why would you kill innocent PEOPLE, whether they're black, white, hispanic, american, muslim, chinese, australian, for one man's actions? I don't think this video DESERVES any attention whatsoever, yet it's getting the exact opposite. Everyone who is acting out in violence is just FEEDING THE MONSTER. You're feeding something that doesn't deserve to be fed, by acting out in rage. Yes, the video was made to provoke rage, and it shouldn't have been made, but NEWS FLASH everyone doesn't always abuses their freedom! This relates to the Kate Middleton topless pictures scandal. Paparazzi will do what they please because they are allowed to take pictures! Should they have disrespected royalty the way they did? NO, but they did, and they will continue to! The same with this video. A man chose to express his FREEDOM of speech in a video. Am I condoning his horrific behavior? NO, because I believe that everyone's religions should be respected. But do we live in that kind of world? OBVIOUSLY NOT, and this is not the first situation where we have realized this. Different religions have been disrespected for years upon years, but you don't see Catholics, Christians, Buddhists, Monks or whatever else there is acting out in rage, KILLING people! I just find it ridiculous that people say they want to avenge their religion by dishonoring it! You're putting blood on the hands of those who believe in what you believe in, because you're "defending" it. What is there to defend? PEOPLE WHO ARE INTELLIGENT AND RESPECTFUL UNDERSTAND THAT THIS VIDEO IS A DISGRACE TO YOUR RELIGION. Why is everyone being blamed?! There were plenty of PEACEFUL protests. THERE WAS NOOOOO NEED FOR THE REACTION THAT OCCURRED. The point is, the video was TRASHY. It was distasteful and disrespectful. It was pointless and childish. Yet, someone made it using their freedom. YOU CANNOT BLAME THE UNITED STATES FOR ALLOWING PEOPLE OF ALL RACES TO EXPRESS THEMSELVES FREELY. Many people of other religions come to this country just to do what this man did, to express themselves! This is just ridiculous and like I said before it truly shows the ignorance that intoxicates the minds of many. This whole thing should just be put to rest, but sadly, in today's world it can't.
In regards to the video “innocence of Islam”, it is but an inane video that I would have not have watched because of its absurdity and bigotry, it seems that in YouTube absurd videos become viral videos. The acting was bad and the script was worse. Today it seems that, Hate + bigotry are the perfect ingredients to so called “freedom of speech” or is it hate speech? No one really knows…..we hide behind these so called “rights” without taking in regards other peoples beliefs or what our words/actions may have as consequence. The real question isn’t whether we should separate state and theology it is whether we should allow the abuse of our political rights. If one shouts “fire” in a crowded theater they would be prosecuted for their actions because they might cause turmoil and endanger everyone. But if one provokes or insults a whole nation or in this case religion, he hides behind this policy yet even though he is endangering many lives and even his own, he is but merely practicing his right isn’t he? As a Muslim, I really didn’t want to watch the video because the prejudice content seems overly recycled, this video didn’t provide factual information it was merely used as tool to provoke, anger, and attack the Muslim community it was providing biased incorrect information that would only generate hate and rage. It seems that attacking religion for some minorities’ actions is considered the new norm ….. This brings me back to whether it is favorable to separate state and theology. To Muslims, Islam isn’t just a religion it’s a way of life, hence separating state and religion seems a bit impractical since the essence of our religion is the obedience and following of the laws that god had laid on to us for god is the highest authority. Now this may not make sense to many and may seem as morally impractical, and would argue that the two would only overpower freedom of choice. But what if it is the choice of the people? A secular state not in any way guarantees freedom of choice, nor those it guarantee stability in a nation. We constantly see religion as an obstacle or as a driven force to many people’s fanatical actions. But to me Islam shouldn’t be judged by what its followers do, nor should Christianity or Judaism. We humans, are flawed, self-righteous, and self-serving hence we don’t need religion to manifest radical ideas in our minds for we will do it ourselves. Religion is used by radicals and extremists as an excuse to hide behind or even validate their actions, it doesn’t mean religion was the cause but we tend to see it that way for we blame anyone or anything but ourselves. Just like we blamed communism, dictatorship, and ethnicity we blame religion for the many atrocities we committed. Rather than isolating the situation and dealing with the people in question as mere representatives of themselves we quickly associate them with a community, a country, or a religion. In conclusion, I urge everyone not to adopt bigoted ideas and base your hate on things you don’t understand until you have researched about them from unbiased sources and have found undefeated justified true belief that supports your prior ideas than you are free to believe and support your beliefs because you have acquired necessary conditions for knowledge, till than please don’t hastily judge something merely on the information you have received or because it doesn’t align with your beliefs, you have to attain UJTB.
I would like to begin by saying that I genuinely applaud what the Muslim people are doing right now. As a Christian, I could only imagine how outraged I would be if some outside party made a film portraying people of my religion in such a negative light. It would be a beautiful thing if people of their respective religions would be so inspired to defend what they claim to be their essential spiritual beliefs – the beliefs that they’ve based their entire lives on – with the fire that Muslims have demonstrated. I obviously don’t agree with violence, but as a classmate said, it has never been off the bat that it has occurred as the people are pushed into these situations from the blatant attempts to desecrate religion. Now with that said, there is no reason why in an openly secularist society that there should be desecration to the extent that we are witnessing at times. Why should someone have to be a punching bag for others who are exercising their “freedom of speech?” And surely no one should be criticized for being overly “dogmatic.” This is shameful to see as an American that there are fools who believe they can burn Korans or that produce a film designed to simply create such backlash. I don’t agree with everyone else’s beliefs necessarily, but there is always a better way to handle it then purposely attacking the person. Wouldn’t you agree? If you didn’t agree with me, surely we could be civilized and talk about it man to man. And if not, at least have the courtesy to keep the negative views to ourselves. “Piss Christ” is another example of an individual taking things a bit too far in my opinion. And, in answer to your question from earlier last week, I would pull the funding for this piece without hesitation. That’s just disrespectful that one would try to make money and gain publicity based solely on controversy like that. Why not concentrate that artistic talent and ability to create something that can be more universally loved?An openly secularist society can definitely work and seems a better alternative to me than a theocracy, but people cannot abuse the powers that the government has granted them either. People need to realize that they can sit down and talk to one another if they don’t agree on beliefs, but if not then at least keep those objections to themselves. Desecration may have to exist as well, but it should never, ever evolve into completely slandering someone else’s beliefs in a manner so extreme as burning their holy book. And I would never expect someone who is truly religious to just sit back and watch as their religion be dragged through the mud.
I've watched parts of the video on youtube the other day and decided to discontinue watching it one I thought it was just dumb in general and two it was a bit insensitive to the whole muslim community. We all believe in something and as long as there are humans on earth there will always be conflict its unfair that muslims are being ridiculed for something people outside of the religion has no idea of whats going on. We do live in a land that allows us to have freedom of speech if we all took everything personally then we as a society wouldn't function. Honestly whatever you believe will always be attacked I believe religions are like gangs trying to prove your side is right, if we all see the bigger picture.. believing that there is a higher being then there is no point for religion I see religion as a guide line to making people behave better. It's upsetting to see something you value be mocked but at the end of the day what can you truly do? You either riot and prove everyone right? or be the stronger group and ignore it because I'm sure there will be another video down the future will every video, statement and picture offend you? Probably but as long as we are granted freedom of speech then in reality there isn't much you can do but accept it.. so I don't think we can live in a open secular world as long as religions are involved. -Bryan Charles
First, I would like to say that the person responsible for this video is a complete idiot and I do not agree with the way he voiced his disagreement with Islam, BUT I have to defend his right to do what he did. No system is perfect, after all, if there is one thing we can all agree with is that us humans aren't perfect. The best we can hope for is to come up with a system that is fair for everyone. Freedom of speech for EVERYONE is one of the great gift America has to offer to it's people. When we offer freedom of speech, we can't discriminate, or give exceptions because the moment you start picking who gets to speak free or not, then you'll be defeating the whole concept of freedom of speech. I agree that this guy was wrong to do as he did. But still, I have to defend his right to do it, because I don't want the alternative. The alternative is a place where you can't speak your mind, where you can't voiced your disagreement. Places like that are repressive and the people in power tend to get away with a lot of wrong doing because it's people can't speak against them without retaliation.Unfortunately, people will abuse the system. Like I said, it ain't perfect and we will never find a perfect system. So, finding ways to stop people from saying things that offend us is not our best option. Our best option is to learn how to react to these offenses in the best manner. I totally understand why Muslims all over the world are indignated by this video. But I can't defend the action of those who are killing innocents. I also believe that the protesters are wrong to blame the USA and burn our flags, BUT I do defend their right to do so, so long as they do it peacefully. Now, as far as secular vs. theocratic governments, I have to disagree with the idea that my classmmate presented in which he says that secularism can only work in certain areas of the world. Most people in America are christian, so if we had a theocratic government it would most likely be with the christian church behind it. Now, imagine how hard it would be for the muslims living in this country, they would have to follow whatever laws the theocratic government imposes on them regardless whether it violates their own system of beliefs. Most Americans recognize how unfair that system would be for muslims, jews and any other religion that is a minority in here. So, before anybody says that open-minded secularism can't work in certain part of the world, think about what kind of fair treatment religion minorities would be getting in those places. Obviously, secularism by itself is not the solution for having fairness for all. As was pointed out by my classmate, many governments claim to be secular and yet they are far from being fair. Many pieces have to come together for having the most fair system, but I defenitely believe that having an open-minded secular system is critical for having fairness for all. Finally, I understand that implementing a true secular system in Muslims nations is very difficult but certainly not impossible. And it can only be done from within, I think that the role of the US should be more of a role model and not of an enforcer. This is all in my humble opinion, and I mean no disrespect to anyone.
Two of the subjects I hate discussing the most are religion and politics. I'll never be able to relate, understand, sympathize, etc. with the idea that people from one religion need to generalize people from another religion. This happens so often and I just will never understand. Specially muslims, who are always somehow portrayed as evil, insane, and extremely aggressive psychopaths. Not all muslims are like that, and it's like saying "all white people are rapists": an extremely irrational statement. There were muslims in Libya with signs saying "Sorry people of America this is not the behavior of our Islam", "Thugs and killers don't represent Benghazi nor Islam", and many more peace-promoting statements. Why doesn't this type of news get spread or more coverage? Because people love to focus on the war, the killings, the ugly and evil. People need to respect others' freedom of speech and their beliefs. Is it really that hard, that when you disagree with someone, to just kindly explain your point of view, and if they don't accept it, just rest your case and move on in peace? I've seen political and religious discussions end in yelling, fighting, and even families falling apart. Seriously? You're going to let that get in the way of a relationship? Whichever your God is, or isn't, I'm sure it's not supporting the idea behind fighting with others and rejecting their beliefs and opinions. With my friends from different religions, I always find myself so interested in knowing more, and think it's absolutely fantastic to get to know all these different types of traditions, beliefs and rules. Like Paulo Coelho said, "It's one thing to feel that you are on the right path, but it's another to think that yours is the only path." All we can do is try to educate one another so we can all further understand each other and our different beliefs, but doing it in a peaceful and respectful manner is ideally how it should be done. "Don't raise your voice, improve your argument." - Desmond TutuNow, about the YouTube video and whole thing going on... I agree with this Tweet: http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_ma96qqnaj01qamcl6o1_500.jpgThe protest in Libya began peacefully and then escalated way to quickly and absurdly, even resulting in the death of Chris Stevens. The film is quite pathetic in my opinion, ridiculously childish, and isn't worth any kind of rage or indignation. So all I can conclude is that there's something way too weird going on here, and a piece, or many, of the puzzle, are missing.
I think the video "Innocence of Muslims" is a very disrespectful film to the muslim society. Yet it is so low quality that I don't see why people would want to take it so far as to kill innocent people. At the end of the day it is a video that someone made on youtube. It is not changing any verses in the Koran, it is not forcing people to change their beliefs, in my opinion the video looks like a spoof, a clear joke there isn't one part that looks educational or that it has some type of truth behind it. I really don't understand why someone would be so upset over something that is so ignorant. Okay, ban youtube that is a welcomed punishment but setting elementary schools on fire and looting their laptops is when things are being taken to far. What muslims need to realize is that Americans do have the freedom of speech we can say or write whatever we like and I don't feel that Nakoula Basseley Nakoula should be penalized for his video it is his opinion. & I don't agree with you Triff that tit-for-tat is necessary because if that contines to be the case and we become as childish and spiteful as the middle east then we would resort to more violence toward them for burning pictures of our president and protesting against America. Blasphemy will always exist and people do need to get used to it everyone will not think alike ever!
....Sand Niggers?? Your professionalism is rife with ad hominems and void of any academic insight. I also see you posted an anti-semitic website that is almost as politically astute as yourself, how wonderful. Maybe you'll grow up and get out of the cave of a brain you have and join the rest of the world, Insh'Allah.
First of all, people need to respect each other. They need to realize that everyone is different and that not everyone is going to have the same views or beliefs. That being said, we need to respect people’s right to believe what they want to believe and practice whichever religion they choose to practice. Yet, we also need to respect other’s right to disagree with our beliefs. Not everyone is going to agree with what we believe and we need to relax and not get so worked up every time someone disagrees with our views. It’s not just religion, in our lifetimes we’ll encounter plenty of people that don’t agree with our decisions and beliefs and will ridicule us for them. We need to learn to take the high road and not take great offense to people that disagree with us.
Religion. I myself hate discussing it as many others do because it will more than likely stir an unnecessary argument. I have to agree with Deyanira, with saying that we all need to respect other’s beliefs. Yes, their beliefs may seem wrong and immoral to us, but like I said those are their beliefs. Also, we have as much as a right to express our beliefs, but we shouldn't push onto others. The burning of Korans and the current increasing in radical hate towards Muslims and the overgeneralization of their culture shows how clueless society can be. Yes, often times there are extremes, yet those extremes have been experienced on both sides of the spectrum. Such as how radical Muslims have fought wars for their religion, Christianity and the Catholic Church have done the same. The point is that often there are things one cannot change, and once an individual crosses that point they will truly understand what being open minded is all about.
There's always a line of respect and while some like to dance on it, others like to run a full mile past it. There have always been beliefs and those who slander it either because of their own belief or they just like to run their mouth. We can go back and forth on the subject for hours on end but there’s the mutual agreement that disrespect is in play. I have grown up understanding that there are always two sides to a story and one tends to be forgotten. “You leave others be and go on your merry way” is a phrase I live by. There are different types of people, two general types are those that state “I respect your view, but I have my own- Let’s agree to disagree” and those that state “It’s my way or the highway, bub!” In the words of a good friend of mine “people need to chill out.”
Everyone can say anything about everyone and anything since we live in a free country but there is a point where it is too much. Everyone has their own beliefs and just because I don't agree with your belief, my belief is wrong? No! We choose to believe in something and its our choice to believe in it or not. It was stupid for those people that made the video. They got what they wanted and it worked. For what though? Why? Just to slam someone else's beliefs? It was stupidity on their part.-Jose Agustin 11 AM CL
fernando, i read you, but there are some issues with your way of discussing in this particular forum: 1- ad hominem is not a good way to hold an argument. 2- there are rules of engagement, as one would do in person with other people. my point: magnanimity & generosity are always a plus. i understand that for some of you this is a first. and we keep learning. let's keep this as an axcercise in what and what not to do. ok?
Post a Comment